Life the universe and everything in between

Okay so theres alot to consider here… so im going to use some reference to a book ive read to put across my views.

firstly as human beings it is the capablities of our minds that distiguish ‘above’ animals. Our minds are powerful instruments, tools we use in constructive and distructive ways. I think Human nature ultimatley is in a very conscious peaceful state without hate/war/violence and greed. Where our minds rise above the ‘ego’ and evolve. However i believe that for the majority of the people in the world derive their human nature through directly association their ‘identity’ with the disfuctional ego driven mind. so what does that bring about in their human nature? A compulsive thinker. Indentificatiion with the egoic mind creates a false mind-made self which casts a shadow of fear and judgement creating a constant white nosie of disfuctional thought. The mind is a tool it is there to be used for a specific task then when the task is finished you put the tool down. Not being able to stop thinking is a dreadful affiction, but becasue most of the human race is suffereing from it, it is considered normal! So the compulsive thinker lives in a state of apparent sperate-ness, in an complex world of continuous problems, and conflict, a world that reflects an esculating disfunction of their mind. So what i think is all this mental noise is preventing us from actually BEING your very essence, and reaching the realisation that I AM, in contrast to I AM THIS or I AM THAT.

No doubt there will be edits and additins to this as it is my first draft, and a little hazy

i was contemplating something similar a few weeks ago.

i remember reading somewhere that scientists had just discovered that even during aparent lapses of thought (like when you zone out or are watching tv) different areas of the brain are working extremly hard. so yes i do think it is a common afliction for humans not to be able to calm their minds. as for the degraded state of general human nature being a result from this inability to disconect with ones mind, this may hold some truth, as would probally negate the ability to notice others.

anyway my thoughts started from a different place,
What is the underlying feature of humanity?
for this i initial used kants idea of pure reason; being that the ability to use reason is the only thing humans cannot learn, it must be somehow inbuilt into our design. all other knowledge is derived from this ability to use reason.
however all animals and computers follow reason, and it seems all to obvious that human nature rarely follows the dictates of reason.
so maybe this ability to ignore reason is the defining principle of humanity.

this perspective greatly reduces my arguement over adam.

but on teh side of reason. inuition has no standard there is no way of telling if ur intuition is better than someone elses, and ignoring reason is how hatred viloence and war come into being.

it seems odd that this one feature that seems to define us as a humans could infact be the cause of all that is wrong in the world. without this ability to ignore reason, there would be no wars no hatred. and while it does not seem strange to us i imagine animals would find the notion of ignoring reason as crazy.

next i’ll look into what causes us to ignore reason (possibly emotions, and intuition?) and weather it is a learnt ability or if it has always co-existed with pure reason.

so yea i havn’t got around to explaining human nature yet, as to why are we greedy hatefull and violent. but i’m on the way.

ok this is a quick and dirty,

human nature at an animal level is to do whatever is most beneficial for
a)the individual
b)the individual’s benifactees.

so why do people act the way they do? all is driven on some level by tangible or intangible benefit to self either directly or as a society/tribe/family/whatever

give me an example of something that isn’t and we’ll talk

ok its pretty L1, but its where i like to start when talking about morality. que the good/evil debate please.

hmm ur basically saying that all actions are rational. how about suicide, or just violence, wife beating…

Okay so i can agree with you George that “all is driven on some level by tangible or intangible benefit” I guess thats where our instinctual need for survival comes out.
Interesting though where would you draw the line, When our human nature reaps its “benefits” from going to destructive, dysfunctional, corrupt lengths (eg, iraq war)? is that in our natural human nature? Is it human nature to have constant conflict and mass scale aggression toward different a societies, peoples, etc etc aspired benefits?

As for reason… i wonder. why do we always seek justification/motive to every move we make. Don’t get me wrong its defiantly a vital part of being a human wither we have actually grasped it or not. But critical analysis/judgment and reason is only one part of the equation in my view. Intuition,faith,feeling etc etc all come into play, I think is not always possible to have or find “good reason” with out a greater understanding and consciousness of yourself first. How could you, you are so separated from who you are inside to know what is the best motive for the benefit of you let alone of ALL beings. Instead their reason is shallow, surface level and self-centered (as an individual or an entire society!).

Ultimately this may well be the defining and finishing cherry on top for the human race, we are far tooo selfishly submerged and concerned about our own benefits that we have missed the boat completely. The single most important thing we ALL NEED TO CONTINUOUSLY BENEFIT FROM, the world we were blessed with, to exist with, is dying before our very eyes.

and no one has the reason to care.

yea i think the ability to make intuitive decisions is one of the underlying feature of humanity. however i feel this is a dangerous understanding for it leaves all my arguments with adam redundant. and there is no way of standardising intuition.

i think with intuitive decisions it is easy to ignore basic logic, where they need to be used incongunction with each other.

grg: i think you are coming from the point of view that feeling based decisions are rartional. this is not the case, the feeling made provide a reason for the course of action however it is not a rational decision.

also i think a good basic start point for this investigation is weather humans in there pure self are naturaly good or simply a blank canvase or if we naturaly have evil tendancies. (i had allways taken this as a given and was surprised to hear this argued)

hmm. just read my last post and its clear that i am unable to make concise point. my mind is a mess

Perhaps i am ed, however I feel that there is enough difference between a rationale for something and the logic behind it for this to stand.
Logi is universal, it’s a series of cause & effect based scenarios in the human mind. Something can be rationalized on a much more relative and temporary scale. If i Want to do something now i can rationalize that it will make me feel happy NOW, tomorrow i might not want to do it at all, the idea might repulse me, Logically the act hasn’t changed. This is I feel how people can act outside of any ‘moral code’ that the _should_ have not only is the rationalisation person-specific it’s also situation specific.

ok im lost sorry

jeez guys can we get some avatars in here please?

Okay before all turns to mush and i loose all direction in where this discussion is going…

My views are that Logic is the principles of reasoning, the method and validity, justification in why we reason. Its a formal thought if you like to seek ‘correct’ reasoning.

Reasoning is more the consideration to support , determine, or argue in order to reach a conclusion or from of action/motive. its more of an explanation more than a theoretically assessed logical justification.

yeah…. something like that

i agree with all of this.

so logic is a purely rational reasoning devoid of all influence from intuition and emotions.

so in this idea: it is this ability to make decisions based on other factors aside from purely logic that makes humanity simultaneously so beautifully and so ugly.

so then it must be that intuition and feelings can can change logical decisions for both the better and the worse. for example risking ones own life to save a small child and inversely stealing money from a bank.

it would seem that majority of humanity cannot distinguish feelings and or intuitions that are positive to those which can cloud judgment for the worse.

better / worse too subjective i feel

what is the purpose of ur comment grg?

are you suggesting that there are no good and bad decisions?

yeah it is a little subjective. Although i think you can purposefully make “good” and “Bad” decisions but then there is also just a plain, simple decision. Anything can turn good or bad, no outcome can be totally certain so i dont see how it can be rationalised into “good” and “bad” either.

i think my main point was that if there is a scale and in the center is the logical answer then to one side are answers that are influenced by emotions that make humanity beuatifull, and on the other side are answers influence by emotions that make humanity ugly.

i think people have not learnt to identify what emotions etc are influencing their decisions.

it is something the stockmarket guys talk about alot; every time they make a trade they have to check themselves and make sure they’re decisions are not fueled by greed but are based on logic reasoning. and apparently they get very good at recognising when greed is clouding their judgment.

yea any rational or emotional decisions can turn out to be a good or bad choice. but i don’t think that is a fault of humanity’s. for there is no way of knowing the future, unless we’re readyto start talking about intuition

Okay so Intuition is ones ability to perceive or know things without conscious reasoning or immediate understanding, and i think this is where another incredible aspect of the human race comes out. The fact that every single being on the planet is created different. We are independant to think and act on our own accord. Therefore Intutition is soley within yourself, its from the inside and sometimes is meerly a fleeting feeling or impression of trust. So if you dont have faith in intuition in the first place then it has no ground of truth or reasoning and therefore can only ‘work’ within each individual who has faith and trust in their own intuition/instinct.

intuition does feel very much like it comes from home or a truer part of oneself.

in·tu·i·tion –noun

1. direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.

Adam once asked me to define how intuition works, i came up with these three answers.

1. it is a subconscious extrapolation of learned factors.

2. it is an immediate emotional response drived by forces like fear and love.

3. it is knowledge gained form an external source.

a 4th could be added that it is a random respones driven by any action being better than inaction.

so if intuition comes from within it must be that within is connected to something external.

this brings into question weather intuition is individual. surely its interpretation is left down to individuals but as to force itself..